and we added to that the sanctions, the rallies, the protests, the education about what was going on, and it brought apartheid to an end. >> yeah, i think the key point if that is the grass-roots movement of divestment as the predicate to sanctions. it became the national government's policy version of what universities and cities and states and all sorts of cities were working on on a grass-roots level. i want to bring in thomas frank, author of "the wrecking crew." tom, there's an amazing chapter in that book that is about the nexus between movement conservative, particularly in the 1980s, and if not pro-apartheid movement, the anti-anti-apartheid movement, that the big issue on campuses particularly was the south african government, anti-apartheid, liberals and leftist opposing it and conservatives rising up in its defense. what did that nexus look like? >> it's good that you put it that way, anti-anti-apartheid because that's exactly what these people were. they would never actually come out and try to rationalize apartheid or try to sell apartheid to an american audience. i mean,